Why Foreplay Should Start When Penetration Ends

You're listening to the Girls Get Off podcast, an R18 podcast in all things female pleasure. Think girl talk, but real girl talk, where we chat all things masty, self loving, sex, orgasms and more. Nothing is off limits, which means you get all the secrets even our guests BFFs don't know. We're on a mission to make talking about getting off as fun as actually doing it. Ready to join the Mastination? Let's get into it. 

Welcome back to another episode of the Girls Get Off podcast. Today we are joined by a very special guest and we are talking couples counseling and also intimacy. And I reckon this has been one of my most favorite episodes yet. For sure, we were even crying a couple of times in that. Well, I think I was twice, you were one, like terri-ard. Ah, see I'm even choked up for words now. Just hearing these stories about more than sex, right? Like more than just. It's not what I expected from this episode. Like I just thought I will just, you know, end up talking about communication or whatever. And there's just so much more to that. The way that she explains it is just so on point. And I think everyone can relate to the ideas and the experiences that she's talking through in this episode. Absolutely. And like she says at one point, like when this couple realized that they could have done this sooner, right? Like, but we just don't think of these things. So yeah, massive episode I feel. And also even if you're not in a relationship and it's something that you might want in the future, I think this episode benefits everyone because it gives you a different perspective of what a relationship can look like and how that has, you know, there's almost like before and afters that she talks about of couples that she's worked with. Absolutely. I mean, how much... But like I feel a lot more equipped going into a relationship one day. I don't know about you, but listening to things like this, even though I am single, oh my gosh, I think my relation, my future relationships are going to be so like so much better because of these things we're learning. You just feel like you've got the tools. I know. Absolutely. Okay. So I'll read a bit of a bio for Gemma. And then we will get into it. So Gemma is a counselor, sex therapist in private practice in Tauranga, supporting individuals and couples through a wide range of challenges and struggles with a special interest in the area of sex and intimacy. Gemma speaks to us about one of the biggest facilitators of deep connection in sex and intimacy and shares with permission some client stories. Amazing. Thanks for joining us Gemma, so excited to have you on today. Thank you for having me. And look, tell us where you got started, how did you come to be a sex therapist and a couples counsellor? So I did my counselling training, finished my counselling training in 2019, I think. And through the process of counselling, through the process of the programme, you've got to have practicums like placements that you go and you practise to be. person that you're becoming in the professional capacity. And so my final practicum, which I then had also been lucky enough to gain employment at was at Waipuna Hospice. And so interestingly, that's where my journey around interest in sex and intimacy came about, which might sound a bit weird because it's death and dying. But I had a few couples, not many. Most of my clientele there were sort of in their 70s, 80s, 90s, as is often the case with hospice. But every now and then I would get younger clients, particularly sort of like in their maybe 30s. And if it was particularly a man with prostate cancer, which makes it very difficult and in a lot of cases impossible to gain and maintain an erection, he and his wife would be... wanting to maintain intimacy but not knowing how. And so my boss at the time, there is a registered sex therapist, registered New Zealand sex therapist. And so I, her and I had never had this conversation before and I went to her and I said, I've got this particular client that I'm working with. I was working with the wife at the time and said to her, you know, they're wanting to maintain intimacy, can you? give me some tips. And so this was over Zoom, I think at the time, because it was around the COVID stuff as well. And she just started talking about masturbation and ejaculation and, you know, does it hurt for him to ejaculate? Has she watched him masturbate? How often does he masturbate? It was just like all of these words that felt like verbal assault, you know? It was like, I could feel myself getting flushed and getting quite... embarrassed about this whole conversation. But once I got over myself and actually, you know, surrendered into the wisdom that she was imparting on me, there was a huge amount to learn. And I was just like, holy shit, this is like, there's so much here that people don't even know about. Well, certainly none of the people in my circles knew about. And so I worked with this couple. I was working with the wife initially. And the husband was quite apprehensive to come and have this session because obviously talking about this stuff is not, you know, if it's difficult, often for women to talk about it, it's certainly very difficult for men to talk about it, especially because this was, his masculinity was in question, you know, because he couldn't gain or maintain an erection. And he was catheterized and there were a whole lot of other issues, sort of medical issues that made all of that quite difficult, you know. And so I had the conversation with the wife and then thankfully the husband had the courage to come in and join us for a session. And I was just very candid to start with, I'm gonna be talking about erections, about masturbation around, and it was a little bit uncomfortable to start with. But again, once they recognized that this was for their benefit and it was about their connection, some of those walls came down, all of the walls came down. And... So we had a very candid conversation and really just sort of got stuck into exploring intimacy rather than sex. So they had come very much from the perspective, which I think a lot of people continue to do, that very ejaculation focused, very erection centric, very penetrative sex based. And so... When we were exploring things like exploring the body as a whole erogenous zone, using different textures, different ice or wax or tassels, leather, silk, and sensual massage and that kind of thing, they just had never considered any of those kinds of things before. And they'd been together for quite some years. I do have permission from the husband who's since passed, I do have permission from the wife to share this, although I'm not sharing any identifying factors. And so we had this conversation, they went away, they came back a couple of weeks later, and they came in and sat down and they just cried. They just said, we only wish we had explored this 20 years ago, you know? They just said it was the most meaningful thing, the most beautiful way that they have ever connected. And I think he might have passed maybe five, six months after that. So. What a, you know. Heartbreaking. Yeah. Cry on the podcast the first time ever. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So it was incredibly meaningful and it really showed me the importance of that connection. Intimacy rather than sex. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'm choked up. And that it is about connection, it is so beautiful and we've dirtied it. You know, society dirties sex. They make it, you know, society makes it dirty. The patriarchy, whatever, you know, pushes it. into the shadows of shame. And here I was with this beautiful couple just bawling their eyes out because the only regret that they had was that they hadn't explored this earlier. You know, and so thus began my journey around working, particularly in the area. I don't only work in the area of sex and intimacy. I do work generally with, you know, a lot of the common, I guess issues and challenges that people bring into the room like anxiety and depression and anger and that kind of thing. But that was my light bulb moment in terms of like that just because it was so amazing. Like how meaningful like really changing people's lives just making them aware of that. And I want to circle back to what you said in terms of you know the perspective, is that the right word? Or the perception that they had at the beginning of it being about penetrative sex and... sex and so on, you must see that all the time. All the time. Yeah. And what are some of the biggest factors that cause us to think like that? I feel like that's gonna be a stupid question, but I'd like to hear that from you. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, we do have a lot of focus on porn these days, you know, a lot of our teens, you know, I can't remember exactly the statistic. I think it's kids from around about... 12, something like 79, 80% of kids have been exposed to porn. Not because they're necessarily seeking it, because they're, you know, put like, for example, my then 10 year old quite some years ago loved space and he put into Google black holes, well you can imagine. came up, can't you? Oh God. And he was this innocent 10 year old looking for something to do with space. He's like, which one is it, mum? I was like, it's none of those. And it's none of those. And so, you know, and so boom. You know, I think straight away. Innocence in question. And so, yeah, it's, and I saw that I spent some time on a practicum in one of our local colleges and that was very, very evident that this is how, this is how kids these days, teenagers, are accessing what it means to be in an intimate relationship as porn. You know, and so there's so much need for education. It's lack of education. It's, you know, sex for the purposes of procreation. There's no focus on things like pleasure. You know, my daughter's school recently said that they sent out a thing saying this is what we are, what do they call it? Safe relationships or whatever they call it. And this is the, you know, the sort of the current day sex education and... They said, you know, read through this and do any, do any parent, if you, any parents have any feedback, please let us know. Well, I had, I had feedback. I think I saw that on your story. I had feedback because yeah, there's just no, there's no focus on, on pleasure. You know, like that's the central thing. It's like actually engaging in intimacy for pleasure. So generally our first sexual experience is so clumsy. Like it's clumsy and it's not sort of tender and explorative and communicative, you know. It's just like. you know, in a lot of cases from what I've heard, it's not very good at all, you know? And so, and that's the foundation that we lay, and then we just build from there, and we're just stumbling through just like, not actually having any idea what's going on, you know? And so, that focus around penetrative sex is, it's historical, again, it's patriarchal, and it just is informed by the education that we have in place, or lack thereof. and just, yeah, like I said, porn, and just the absolute disastrous lack of awareness. Yeah. And so what about for those couples who might even be listening going, how do I change it? What do I do next? Yeah, well, communication is the lubrication of life. So. You're listening to that, Fiv? Yeah. So. So it's key, that's the central key to it all. It's actually having the courage, because it does take courage to have these conversations because we have to be vulnerable. We have to be vulnerable in these conversations. And that's generally the big obstacle is the need to be vulnerable, the need to sort of say, if I'm working with couples and, for example, there was one couple. and we got onto the topic of blowjobs and he said, well, I've had one of those for a long time and so we were talking about that and they'd been together for about 13 years and a year into it, there was an interaction that happened around a blowjob and so. there were no other blowjobs that happened after that time. So 12 years of no blowjobs. So we were unpacking that. I said, please explain to me what's happened in that. And she said to him, well, you made a noise which showed that obviously you weren't enjoying it. And so that was it. And he was like, wait, what? What the fuck? What are you saying? And she said, you made this noise. And he was like, that's because I was enjoying it. And she was like, what? 12 years. Like no conversation, no conversation for 12 years around no blow jobs, you know, like, and so that he went, he was like. What the fuck, 12 years ago? No, my job. He was like, I thought that you didn't like doing it. And she was like, I thought that you didn't like it. She was like, I would love, I would love to. He was like, I can't even, I don't even know what's happening here. I just, I don't even know. Okay? And that was it. It was like, you know, it's this unspoken communication that's so powerful. And we allow our brains to just fill in the gaps. We make these assumptions and so often we're wrong. And the same can be said about all aspects, all aspects of foreplay, all aspects of intimacy. It's just like, well, you looked at me this way, or you made this noise, or you said this thing, and no further conversation happens about it. And like... who knows what's happened in that engagement, you know? So it's like communication is absolutely central. It's so central to everything and it is about, it's not just, because it's the recognition that foreplay happens at the end of the last sexual encounter. So I left a silence there to let everybody think about it. I get it, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's like. I'm lost, I might need another pause. Yeah. So it's like at the end of the last sexual encounter, from that point until the next sexual encounter, all that space in between, going to everything, it's all full play. Like it's sending a text saying, I was so grateful for the dinner that you made me last night. Yeah, like you can't be a dick and then expect them to be in the moon. Yeah. It's got to be full play. Yeah. Or even on the other side of the coin, just doing nice things. Yeah. Like aftercare. Yes, yes. Joe, always bring it. Just make me a cup of tea. I always manage to bring the negative into relationship talks. Don't be a dick. But don't be a dick is a good one too. Yeah, that's also important. I love it. But it is. It's those little exchanges. When you're saying goodbye to your partner in the morning, it's holding the kiss for slightly longer. It's pausing and making eye contact. sending a text in the middle of the day and saying, you know, you looked so beautiful the other night when we went out for dinner. You know, it's like showing that you are thinking about your partner. I'm gonna cry for a second now. That's so nice! Don't be a dick though, don't be a dick. No, send nice messages like that, listen to Gemma. That's a good one, okay, keep it going, what else? But it is, like if humour is an aspect, because some people, like there's banter, right? Like you have banter, so if that's what your communication style is, it's like go with that. And it's exploring things like love languages. You know, like I was working with a couple and they were at crisis, Couples come into counseling when they are in crisis. You know, like shit's happened, the shit's hit the fan. You know, she's cheated or he's cheated or something's happened. And when really if they had come in six months or a year or in some cases years earlier, because some of these pair toxic patterns go on for years, you know. And so they come in when the shit's really hit the fan. And it's a lot more difficult to. pull a relation back from that. Certainly not impossible, absolutely not impossible, but it's a lot more difficult when those patterns have been established. The longer those toxic patterns have been established for, the more difficult it is to pull the relationship back. And it does take work, and I hear it all the time. Generally it's the guys going, oh, this is work. I'm like, because what you guys are currently doing isn't work, right? You know, like what you guys are currently doing suck. Yeah, it's more draining. Way more draining. In a bad relationship, yeah. with their shoes. Way more draining, yeah. Yeah, and so I was working with this couple and we hadn't really explored love languages, we had explored conflict styles and communication patterns and that kind of thing. And so, but we had touched on the ways that they feel loved and supported by each other. And so he had gone out, he was really putting in this effort and so he had gone out and he had put together this beautiful gift. box, spend a huge amount of money and time and energy on this beautiful gift box with all of her favourite things, you know, it was so beautiful. and her favorite hand cream or something, and they didn't have it, so he had to order it in, and all this time and energy put into it. And so she was working from home, and she's tapping around the laptop, and he comes home with this gift box, and he puts it down beside her, and she turns and she looks at it, and she's like, oh my God, that's so amazing, it's beautiful, looks up at him and says, thank you so much, it's so thoughtful, it's amazing, thank you so much, and then keeps tapping away, because she was working. Well, he just hit the roof. He was just like, that wasn't enough. He wanted her to... acknowledge the hand cream, acknowledge special chocolates, like have a chocolate, like he wanted more, you know, and the little kind of response that she gave him wasn't enough and to him that was just that was kind of it, like he'd put all this effort in and so he ended up moving out for like a week or something and they came in the next week and they were explaining it to me and she said, how, in the whole time that we've been together, because again, I think maybe over a decade together and the whole time that we've been together, how do I normally receive gifts? And he was like, oh yeah, no, you're shit at receiving gifts. And she was like, so like, and so we talked about love languages and she was words of affirmation and quality time and he was gifts and physical touch. And so when we broke it down and they understood. what motivated both of them in terms of how they needed to be loved and how they loved on each other. It just like transformed everything. It transformed everything. So it's dependent on what the issues are that have occurred for the couple. we will look at, you know, I'll sort of look at guiding down different pathways. So whether it's love languages, whether it's communication, it's always communication. There's always communication. Viv, it's always communication. I know. My bloody gallop strengths find it. Speaks the truth. But yeah, it is, communication is at the foundation of it all, but there are different sort of pathways dependent on what the issues are. That we will look at. going down to help support wherever those couples, wherever that couple's at the time. And so if it is around like love languages, so for example, like words of affirmation is such an easy one if your top love language is words of affirmation, you can do that in text, you can be sending beautiful text messages. But it also is looking at that person and what they're like. So if it's more, if you're words of affirmation but you're a banter person, which I'm kind of feeling about a banter, Jo, Then it is about, you know, it is about kind of, you know, like banterish terms of endowment for one another. So rather than going, oh, you know, my love or, you know, my, you know, my beautiful partner or whatever, it might be, you know, stop being a dick. And that might just be the way that you guys engage. Yeah, like I think I would spew in my mouth. If I got some romantic part or something. Yeah, I think that's what Jo would call a red flag. Yeah, I mean... Yeah. So yeah, so it is about working what, you know, like, if that's what you're like, Jo, then you're in the first place not going to be attracting somebody who, you know, is going to be all... Not a poet. No, certainly not. Well maybe you're pulled in a different way. Satire perhaps. So it is, so it's working with your personality and it's working with who each of you are and bringing those to the strengths of the relationship, playing those strengths up into the relationship and importantly not expecting something that the other person can't give. Because expectations are huge. Expectations, yeah, they're huge. Expectations are the birthplace of resentment and resentment is the beginning of the end. Yeah. You know, like we really need to be checking our expectations. Expectations is kind of, it's like a word that's dirtied because it's like, oh, no expectations. But we all have expectations and that's okay. So it's the recognition that it's necessary to have expectations. What holds us back is when we're not communicating our expectations with people. and we're just expecting people to have crystal balls. You know, and I hear this so often in my sessions, like, you know, you know that I don't like that. And he's like, when have you told me that you don't like that? And she's like, well, like, isn't it obvious? And he's like, not to me, it's not. You know? But even just the expectation of giving that amazing gift and expecting her reaction to be more than what it was, that was kind of the downfall, his expectation, right? Like, cause if he didn't have that expectation, it- would have gone a lot smoother. Yes, yes, absolutely. I get all this. Yeah. I did it, I actually did a personal development course one weekend and by the end of the weekend it was almost funny when people would get up and talk about their things because it was all about the expectations so everyone, by the end we were like, oh god, here we go again, like everyone, they're stupid little human brains. Right? But anyway, you mentioned some people are coming to you at crisis point. Did you ever say you're a stupid? Silly little human brain. Yeah, that's what I said to my friend yesterday who were talking, she's got a new job. And I'm like, it's so good. It's just your silly little human brain trying to make you unsure of it. But anyway, you talk about these couples who are coming to you at crisis point, or, you know, perhaps they should have come 10 years earlier. What are some of the signs or as Jo might say, the red flags as to when people should be thinking about maybe? therapy would be a good time for them. Yeah, and this, and I guess it's important to point out that as a therapist myself, we all have slightly different approaches as therapists, so we're all slightly different people, and so what I'm sharing is based off my training and my continued professional development, but it's also based off my, because who we are as therapists is who we are as people. You know, and so it's sort of based off my personal experience and it's based off all the things that have come together, all the different components that have kind of drawn together to make me who I am. And so it's important that, excuse me, that there's a recognition that I'm not the canvas for the whole of the counselling community, you know? But I think in terms of the red flags, what I look at is... when the patterns have started to occur. So what is the history or the whakapapa of this particular pattern? So if we've got something like taking the piss, taking the piss is something that comes up quite a bit. Like there'll be something that's important to her and he'll take the piss out of that. And he continues to do that and she's just getting more and more resentful. Like more, it's just blood's boiling more and more and more because it might be something like... you know, say they are sitting down watching a movie or something and she might grab more of the chocolate and he'll be like, whoa, slow down. And you know, and so, and then there might be another little comment about that or another little comment about that. And that kind of, you know, and he's doing it in good fun, but that's independent on her history. I mean, there could have been a history of an eating disorder or something. And so that's gonna cut, you know? And so. With that, we need to, sort of my role from some of the training that I've done is three times. So if this thing happens once, you can kind of, it happens and you can go, okay, what is that? Where am I feeling that? What is that about? Where does that come from? What is this feeling? Is it anxiety? Is it anger? Like exploring it in yourself and then going, okay, so I'm just aware of that. I'm aware of where it might come from, from my past, like past relationship wounds or. childhood stuff or whatever the case may be. So that's the first time that it comes up. When it comes up again, you're like, okay, so here it is again. So this is starting to feel like something now, like there's a bit more sort of body to it. By the third time, depending on what the thing is, if the thing's a big thing, then we wanna be addressing it straight away. But if there's, because it's these little corrosive things that happen over time and those are the ones that are typically the relationship killers, because they eat away, they're insidious, they eat away. And so you want to get to the third time and then go, okay, now I need to have a conversation with you about it. And so then you say, look, what I've known, and we're being very mindful of our communication. You know, not like you're a dick. You know? We're wanting to say, you know, I've noticed that this has become a bit of a pattern where you... have said this a few times and I'm just noticing that it's making me feel upset, it's making me feel sad. And the reason that it's making me feel sad is because my dad that you know I don't have a good relationship with used to say this to me when I was little, when I was a little girl, and it makes me really sad when you say that. Now I'm assuming that you don't want to make me upset, so can we have a conversation about maybe where that's coming from in you? Like what, you know. what's happening for you when you're saying that to me, and let's work on making that less so that we don't have, this doesn't become a pattern. Because that's what we're wanting to do. All of these things, they become patterns. And so every single person that we're in relationship with, like you guys have a pattern, you have a pattern with each person in your family, your colleagues, everybody you've got a pattern with. The issue is when that pattern is problematic. Like when there's... when there's toxic stuff or there's stuff that is making you feel shit about yourself or making you feel drained or whatever the case may be, though that's when you're wanting to jump on that. You're wanting to become aware of those patterns and how they're making you feel. And so that's kind of my role is like the three, again, unless it's something major. If it's something major that has just knocked you off your perch, then you wanna hit that straight away. But otherwise, it's like sort of three times and then then if you cut it off then, then it's not gonna become a pattern. So it's about needing to become aware of those things. Because what I see is then, what I see is that thing that isn't cut off at the third time can become a pattern over years, and that's what I see. And then the disconnect grows and grows and grows and grows, and what happens in that regard is then they start looking external to the relationship for that fulfillment. So whether that's in another person, whether that's in... exercise or work or whatever the case may be, but they will look and start to look external. Yeah. Wow. Do you, would you recommend or at what point kind of is optimal to start like as a couple, seeing a couple of therapists together? Like, because from past experience, I'm like, shit, if I was in a relationship for six months now, before anything went bad, I reckon I'd start like monthly couples counselling. Yeah. Just to try and find any red flags. No. Just in case I miss something. Give someone else a check. No, no, no. Just to keep it, you know, like before, cause I don't think I ever wanna spend a part of my life in a bad relationship again. So I think that's kinda, Like my tactic anyway is just to keep things healthy and at least if it's not healthy, that'll kind of make it clear, right? And then you can bail. Absolutely, and I think six months is a great kind of benchmark, I suppose. I typically don't say that, although I have seen this once and I asked this couple, I said, I'm gonna be using you guys as an example, is that okay? And they were like, absolutely, go for gold. And so they were in their, they are in their late 20s. They'd been together for six months. And they came in and said, look, we really like each other. We're really digging the relationship. We get on really well. The sex is great. We are starting to look towards the future. And we just wanna make sure that we've, that we, you know, that we are working on the things that we need to work on, that we're aware of, like any of the blind spots, you know, cause we have blind spots in relationships. And In that sort of first six months to a year, you're in the honeymoon period, which is often when the rose-tinted glasses are on and you don't see those sort of less appealing parts of your partner. And so they were like, we wanna know, we wanna explore our love languages, we wanna explore our communication style, our conflict style. And I just sat there and just went, holy shit. You go, that's amazing. Yeah, it's cool. It's like, I just don't see that. I see crisis, that's just all I see, you know? Or... It might be that I will be working with an individual who the focus is on the relationship and every session is about the relationship. And I'm like, it's very difficult to work with an individual when the whole thing is focused on the relationship if we're not working with both people. So it's one or the other, but it's generally focused around the problems in the relationship, the challenges in the relationship. So this couple in their late 20s that came in, it was just like... Wow. Amazing, right? Not the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly, because there's so much that we don't know. And it's obviously not just about sex and intimacy because the thing is if we get the connection right and if we get the communication right, then the intimacy is going to just take care of itself. Yeah. If you feel safe, because safety is more important than love. So if you feel safe with that person, you feel safe to lower your walls, to be vulnerable, to expose aspects of yourself that you might not have exposed to other people before, you are gonna feel safe and intimate connection with that person. And so it's so heartening to me when I see people coming in when they're not in crisis. And sometimes that younger couple were definitely an exception to the rule, but. Sometimes I can be working with an individual and then they might engage together and they might not necessarily be in crisis, but they, and interestingly, couples that aren't in crisis, can, the uptake on the work that we're doing tends to be more efficient, for want of a better word, because they're not in crisis. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, because they're not in crisis, because when you're in crisis, you've got. so much to have to remember all the time. And that's what I keep hearing is, oh my God, it's so much work. But like you said, like being in a shitty relationship is hard work anyway. Like your adrenaline is always going, like they get home, you're like, oh God, they're home. You know, and there's all this dread and all this kind of, what are they gonna say? What are they gonna be like when they, you know, have they had a bad day? You know, all of these things that just become such toxic but normal parts of your life, which are just awful. They're just horrible. And so if you can instead harness that work, the harness, the energy that you're putting into that work into stuff that's going to be more beneficial and more meaningful and more about connection and the relationship, doesn't that make sense? Makes sense to me. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, okay. So what would be your top three tips for intimacy in a relationship? Well. Not surprisingly, communication. I hate to say that. I guess, yeah, yeah. Okay, get that one. Yeah. I kind of run with like a three C thing. So communication, consistency, and connection. And so at the foundation of it is the connection. So if we don't have the connection, I mean, if you don't have a connection with somebody, then you're probably not gonna pursue it unless there's been, unless there's some trauma bonding going on, in which case there is connection, but it's very unhealthy. You know, so we want to be looking at the foundation of the connection first and the different aspects that come into what makes up that connection, which I will sometimes refer to as the three L's, which are like, love and lust. And so you want to like that person, you know, because you can love someone. I love my children, but I often don't like them. You know? So you wanna like that person, you know? Like you wanna actually like them. And the love will often, if the connection is there, the love will often sort of also take care of itself. Like sometimes you might not like them. Sometimes you'll be like, you're a dick today. You're just being a dick. But the love is what kind of pulls you through, you know? The lust, which is what happens in that honeymoon phase, changes over time. And the transition that I highlight is that it changes from lust to desire, which is a different thing. And you need to work to keep maintaining desire, particularly in a longer term relationship. Like that does take work. It takes, and it takes continued exploration. Like who I was, who I was as a sexual being in my 20s is very different to who I am as a sexual being now. You know, so we grow and change. So you want to be checking in with that person, with the person that you're in intimate connection with. There's a... There's an American therapist, sex therapist, who's come up with a yes, no, maybe list. And so I'll often explore that kind of thing with couples in terms of intimacy as well. So she's, Sex with Emily is her Instagram. And the yes, no, maybe list is an alphabetized list of intimate activities, like starting from things like anal rimming, giving and receiving. anal penetration, giving and receiving, all the way down to Z, with everything in between. And so sometimes if couples are feeling stuck in terms of desire, I might present that as a tool to explore, you know? So we want to be working on that. We don't want to let that die. And... The key thing is... That's starting pretty strong. Straight for anal rimming. Followed up with anal penetration. I'll do a flying start. Third date, let's explore. So if you want to explore the third date, Jo, you can. But it's, I mean, the idea of the yes no maybe is that the people take the list and they go away and they do it separately. And then you come back together and you're like, wow, that's a yes for you. That's definitely not a yes for me. But this is a maybe and I see that that's a maybe for you. So maybe let's explore that. Yeah, that's cool. And some, like the list is pretty out the gate. And sometimes I have couples going, I have never heard of that in my life. I don't know what that is. I wouldn't want to Google that one. Yeah, exactly. Like black holes are bad. So yeah, so it's really, it's where we put intention, you know, and we have to prioritise our relationships. Like we have to do that and that's a choice that we have to make and if we don't they will suffer. You know, I often regard relationships like gardens, like if you just don't do anything to your garden then the weeds are going to take over and it's just going to turn to shit. Like... we have to be putting effort into our relationships and if we don't, it shows. If we work on the to come back to connection, consistency and communication. So we want to be working on that connection and looking at the love like and lust. You know, so even when the last has has, you know, transferred over into desire, we still want to be fostering that we want to be tending to it and nurturing it and nourishing it and exploring it with each other. And so that's kind of the connection. Then the communication again. is just if we can establish the communication early on in the relationship, then that's going to also continue. Then we set ourselves up well for longevity in terms of our relationship. And really focusing on the things that are important in terms of our central value. So if honesty is a really important central value, then what does that mean? And sometimes that's about exploring different attachment styles as well, like if we're an insecure attachure or an avoidant attachure or whatever the case may be. So using these, again, using these different tools to support the best way that we can actually establish an intentional communication foundation, you know, and just being really, really open about that and open to exploring it. So. Yeah, communication is central and then consistency. So as the name suggests, the word suggests, it's about being intentional, about engaging in those things consistently. And consistency is key because again, we might come in to the early on in the early stage of the relationship and we're all guns blazing and it's all, it's all mythical and magical. And then over time, just life. Just, you know, like the work and other responsibilities and all the things just sort of start to creep back in and take a little bit more, become a little bit more dominant and then the relationship sort of falls onto the back burner a little bit and there's less, often less motivation to, it's just kind of like, that's just a nice thing that's over there, but it's again. what we're not putting intention into, it shows. It impacts, and it impacts on our wellbeing. Like we know if we're not putting that energy and that intention into our relationships. So the necessity is to be being intentional about pouring love, pouring intention, pouring energy into that relationship and into understanding where the person's coming from. Understanding is key. Again, what I see is I'll have a couple and they'll come in and they're sitting on opposite ends of the couch and they're sort of arms folded and frowny faces and often he's been dragged in by her. You know? And so they're sitting there and it's like there's a canyon between them and she's really angry and he's really angry and they're sort of doing this thing and I'm like, they're going back and forth and I'm like, you guys are paying me to watch you do something that you do at home. Is this constructive? It doesn't feel constructive. And so then we sort of, you know, we break it down and he's like, you know, he's, the body language is very, very clear. But then what happens is I start to kind of inquire into what's happening for her. This is what I'm gender stereotyping here, so I need to make that clear. And so I start inquiring into what's happening for her and then she starts to cry. and then suddenly she starts crying and becoming sad, he will turn and he will be like move closer to her and he will comfort her and he will put his hand on her leg because she's being vulnerable, you know? Because it's a lot easier to support sadness than it is to support anger. And anger is one of the dominant, it's one of the dominant things that I see in these relationship interactions, but anger is typically not the primary emotion. Like, So often from a counseling perspective, anger is just the tip of the iceberg, and that's what you see, and an iceberg is the anger. But what lies underneath is often sadness and a whole lot of other shame, guilt, regret, remorse. There's so many other things that inform the basis of that iceberg. So it's about actually dialing down the anger and looking at what's underneath that, and so often when we actually mine into that, it is sadness. And... And in that instance, you know, he wants to love on her and support her, you know? So understanding is key. When he understands that that's about sadness for her and that, you know, that she, that what's happening there isn't about, you know, isn't about the fact that he's leaving tails on the ground or that she's not, you know. got dinner ready or whatever, like again, very gender stereotypical, it's terrible. But it's not actually about that. It's not about any of those things. It's about often a lack of respect. It's about not feeling heard. It's about the disconnect and that connection, you know? And so understanding is key. When we can understand where somebody's coming from, it totally transforms how we feel about that person, you know? And I just, that is one of the key ones. Like you can be angry with somebody, and but then actually what I say with my, what I say with clients, especially if I have people coming in around anger, that I care less about their behavior and more about their why. Like why are you doing that? Why are you punching holes in walls? Why are you cheating? Why are you, because there's something behind that, and there's often pain behind that. There's always pain behind. You know, so if we can go behind it and understand what's behind that, then all of a sudden the behaviour actually doesn't take centre stage anymore. It's about how can we actually support that person in the way that they need to be supported and loved, and when you do that, that behaviour will always change. I like it. Very cool. So great. And so you've got these intimacy cards in front of us, Best Self, talk us through what this intimacy deck is. Yes, yes. So, So 150 prompts, as it says, and it says a tool for deeper connection and conversation with your partner. So I utilize these, I will either encourage couples to go and get a deck themselves, or I will lend mine out, or we will go through and pick a few of the questions that really feel like they're relevant to that particular couple, and we'll write them down, and I'll give them a page of those questions. because yeah, I can't follow couples around because I'll get arrested. So, and I also just don't have time for the inclination for that. And so, yeah, so these cards are broken down into different sort of categories. And so I'll often just sort of pick the cards at random. And again, there's a good number of them. Like 150 is a good, you know, that's a good lot to pick from. And so just for example, this one, which is the about you category, what do you think are my worst qualities? Yes. Wow, what a start. The intimacy category, what do I do that turns you on the most? Nice. Yeah, that's good. Relationship, are there any areas of our relationship that you feel lack trust? Explain. Oh. Life is what's your biggest pet peeve? You just wouldn't get these normally, would you? No. I wouldn't think of these. Yeah, random, the random category, which animal do you think is your spirit animal and why? The past, tell me something you believed as a child that makes you laugh now. That's all the categories. So, yeah, so there's, yeah, I mean, there's what do you wish we did more of in our sex life? How has your childhood or upbringing shaped your sexuality? Wow, so it's just a different way to know more. Yeah, prompts to start those conversations, hey? Yeah. All that communication. Communication. It's the dirty C word, Viv. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Honestly, every guest we have on the podcast, it all essentially comes back to communication, doesn't it? Yeah, it's great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. That's just been so awesome. I think that's gonna be helpful for a lot of people. And if people do wanna get in touch with you, how can they do that? How can they follow your content? So that I can give you links to that. Yeah, perfect. links to both my, I'm in private practice here in Tauranga, so either there or to my social media. Amazing, cool. Thank you so much, Gemma, that was awesome. So great, thank you. Thank you. Licked. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of the Girls Get Off podcast. You can find us on Instagram at girlsgetoff. You can join our Facebook group, Girls Get Off Uncensored. I think we've got more than 20,000 members in there at the moment. And if you'd like to leave us a rating or review, that always helps us get higher in the charts and every week we'll pick the most creative review to win a Missy Mini. Thanks for listening.